Stop telling people to turn with the foot pegs

Forums ChampU ChampU Feedback Stop telling people to turn with the foot pegs

  • This topic has 7 replies, 4 voices, and was last updated 1 week ago by Nick Ienatsch.
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    Michael Nanni

    Leaning the bike by weighting the inside foot peg is very inefficient and slow. It’s bad advice for sport bike riders on the track. I’ve tried this technique on the road on a 200 Duke, R3, Ducati 848, Panigale 1199, and Panigale 1299. I’ve also done this on track on a Yamaha R3, Panigale, and multiple BMW S1000 RR models. The results are the same at multiple racetracks around Canada and the US. I end up turning the bike slower, and putting a lot of pain in my knees by the end of the day.

    I’ll admit this technique is okay for the street because it helps riders learn what a smooth turn in feels like. It can help increase confidence when you are too abrupt on the bars.

    However, sport bike riders that go to the track need to learn to turn faster and more efficiently than that. Their bikes are setup to turn in fast when using the bars. Their foot pegs are too high to comfortably throw body weight into for every turn. This can potentially be a dangerous habit that leads to slow steering and fatigue resulting in a crash.

    No other reputable racing or riding school in North America or Europe recommends that technique. Giving out that bad advice in your online course hurts what is otherwise an excellent program. Please fix it to prevent riders from crashing at the track, and to prevent experienced riders from dismissing an otherwise excellent program you have here.

    Nick Ienatsch

    Michael… Not sure where we are recommending only inside-footpeg weighting for steering? In the Pointy End drills we discuss bar pressure/countersteering. We talk endlessly about reducing speed to steer and especially tightening steering geometry with the brakes to help steering. We discuss outside leg against the tank to help steering. We discuss the pace at which we move our heads to the inside to weight the “inside axis of the gyro”, or footpeg.

    Something interesting: Your note is the first we’ve had about this! Nobody else has accused us of this “bad advice” that is causing riders to “crash at the track” and hurt the experience of other riders!! I’m hoping you can review the course and see the directions we approach steering. Have you watched the entire curriculum?

    One thought: You might believe in steering your bike as late and as quickly as possible? That would move you away from our ideas and have you believing only in bar pressure/countersteering. If that’s the case, study your favorite winning racer and watch not just their turn-in point, but their turn-in rate! Nobody at the top is flicking the bike around with bar pressure only, especially with the front-tire loads they carry into corners.

    Last thing: You listed your bikes and street/track experience, but you didn’t list the level at which your ride or race? That’s an important aspect. Racers at the back of the pack are not doing things as well as those at the front, all things being equal, like spec tires and cc limits. We launched Champ U because of the bad advice so prevalent in riding; everybody has a computer and an opinion, but what is it based on?

    Speaking of the front of the pack: Of the five instructors you watched on Champ U (Me, Kyle Wyman, Chris Peris, Elena Meyers, Mark Schellinger), four of us have won at least one AMA/MotoAmerica national. This team of coaches has won on TZ250s, CBR900RRs, S1000RRs, CBR600s, GSX-R600s and 750s, XR1200s, RoadGlides, OWO1s, FZR1000s, RS125s, SRX600s, KZ550s and Z1s, FZR400s and 600s, NSR250s, TZ750s, R1s…not just ridden, won races and championships on. In other words, our opinions are based on winning motorcycle races, and studying motorcycle racing champions. None of us would put our name on “bad advice” and I urge you to attend a two-day ChampSchool so the lessons of Champ U can be truly ingrained. There’s a whole world of bike control, speed, and safety waiting for you Michael!
    -Nick I.

    Scott King

    FWIW I didn’t take anything in the ChampU program to be saying “turn using the foot pegs.” I took all the discussion of “weighting the inside axis of the gyro” to be guidance regarding shifting rider weight around to aid in cornering.

    Michael Nanni

    Please review the body position section of your online course. Videos there mention using body weight on the inside footpeg to affect the gyro. Students will fail the quizzes unless they include weighting the inside footpeg in their answers. Quiz 1 is a perfect example.

    Most people will pick a side when they hear two sets of facts. I’m trying to consolidate what I’ve learned from many reputable sources. That’s probably why I’m the first to point this out. I’m letting you know where this technique has worked for me, and where it hasn’t. Turns 8 and 8a at Sonoma are a good example of where you need to turn in quicker to go faster through those esses. Body position and steering all come together through those corners.

    Im not a racer. I’m a student of racers. That’s why I paid for this course and I would be happy to take an in person course with you the next time spots are available in my area. I’m not trying to impress anyone with my opinion or racing pedigree.

    I’m sure you have heard of Keith Code and Lee Parks? Neither of them recommend weighting the inside footpeg to make a bike turn in their books. Lee has documented a verbose 10 steps to turning a bike and none of them include weighting the inside footpeg. Keith has made his “No BS” bike famous. I had a detailed discussion with Keith in person about this topic and I agree with him and his (very fast) coaches that the inside leg should be relaxed on the peg while hanging off. It sounds like you agree too but your course material does not.

    Winning races doesn’t make you a good teacher. Being aware of your course material and how it affects your students riding does. I hope this feedback helps improve your online course.

    Nick Ienatsch

    Thanks for filling in some detail Michael. And you’re referencing Keith and Lee SO NOW YOU’VE GOTTA COME TO YCRS!! 🙂

    Your first post was like walking into a restaurant and telling the chef, “Your food is poisoning people.” Now you’re admitting to being one of us, a student of the sport…and that indicates you’re willing to taste the food before the condemnation begins! I’m encouraging you to put the lessons of Champ U into play…note that we’re mentioning countersteering everywhere, like in body and Pointy End, but nobody good steers the bike in one way, so please study all that we’re putting forth.

    Now that you’re coming to the school 🙂 we can do my favorite thing: Discuss motorcycle riding with an actual motorcycle on/in a road/track/parking lot!

    When I tell you there’s a whole new world waiting for you, I want to be specific. Our school will teach you to run the exact lap times you’re running with a significantly larger margin for error, and that means more comfort at the speed you choose. Second, we will teach you to be faster when you push to your 100%. Right now you might want to “be three seconds a lap faster”…and YCRS will show you where the tenths of seconds that make up three seconds lie. As you step along in your learning curve, you will find that these seemingly-small Champ U subjects…weight on the inside footpeg, for instance…loom large. -Nick I.

    PS: I’ve enjoyed this conversation…it was especially fun to think of all the bikes this crew has won races on, and that was off the top of my head and just these five coaches!! Prolly more. Racing is important in that it measures “fast”…it’s not everything, but it helps categorize a sport that can be done in a lot of ways until it can’t.

    Shane Trapp

    I just re-watched that section and yeah… you crazy bro! What I got out of the section about weight on the foot peg was not turn your bike with the foot pegs. I think you might have hyper focused on what you thought was incorrect info and missed the point of what they were saying. No hate just my 2 cents.

    Michael Nanni

    Yeah that’s fair. After reading this thread it cleared up the confusion for me. Maybe others who have gone to Keith’s school or read Total Control will be confused too? Not sure, but I’m hoping this feedback will help the creators of this course.

    Nick Ienatsch

    Yes, Michael, it does help us, thanks. You will see us stress countersteering/bar pressure in our upcoming New Rider Champ U!

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