Tagged: Braking "when nervous"...
- This topic has 49 replies, 27 voices, and was last updated 1 day ago by Nick Ienatsch.
May 24, 2022 at 3:38 pm #528926Ken Goodrich
Thanks for the reply Nick. Hey, the engineer in my is making me push back on steering wheel angle = lean angle. I get and respect the overall analogy of car = 4 wheel practice motorcycle, but understanding the difference between what steering-wheel angle does for a car versus lean angle for a bike is fundamental to understanding how a bike is different. Independent of speed (…and assuming we’re going slow enough that significant wheel slip/drift isn’t occurring) steering-wheel angle sets the turn radius. Any corner with that radius will require the same steering-wheel angle…fast or slow it doesn’t matter. As the series highlights, on a bike at the same lean-angle the bike will make tight turns at low speed (small radius) and wide turns at high speed (large radius). For practical purposes, lean angle is the combination of steering-wheel angle *and* speed. I’m sure you guys know all this and want to keep the messaging as simply as possible. Maybe use this difference for an advance course 🙂May 25, 2022 at 6:25 am #528942Keith Culver
The steering wheel angle analogy is not designed to be scientifically specific. It is designed to allow students to use their car or truck to practice being better motorcycle riders. Understanding and practicing NOT adding steering wheel angle and speed simultaneously and/or recognizing steering wheel angle lessening as we exit at corner and accelerate gives us another way to understand the best ways to ride in curves and corners safely.
We’ll leave the detailed science to all of you much smarter than we are.
KeithMay 30, 2022 at 12:17 pm #529182Michael Trinidad
Hello question about trail braking. When it to curve roads, canyon riding, twisties and what not am i supposed to use front brakes and rear brakes all of the same time? Or am i just using front brake? I been learning a lot of stuff in regards to braking as the most important tool in a motorcycle. I went riding with a bunch of riders to yosemite it was my first time riding with big group and the roads were treacherous for a beginner rider. As i was riding the twisties i found myself relying in engine braking and as i learned stuff here nnow paying more importance on using the brakes thank you for your time in reading this aand have a great day.May 30, 2022 at 12:18 pm #529183Michael Trinidad
Hello question about trail braking. When it to curve roads, canyon riding, twisties and what not am i supposed to use front brakes and rear brakes all of the same time? Or am i just using front brake? I been learning a lot of stuff in regards to braking as the most important tool in a motorcycle. I went riding with a bunch of riders to yosemite it was my first time riding with big group and the roads were treacherous for a beginner rider. As i was riding the twisties i found myself relying in engine braking and as i learned stuff here nnow paying more importance on using the brakes thank you for your timeMay 30, 2022 at 12:49 pm #529187Michael Trinidad
When it comes to canyon riding, curve roads do i use both brakes front and rear to have control over the bike?June 6, 2022 at 7:42 am #529572Alex Hatfield
The front brake provides up to 90% or so of our braking force (depending on style of bike), so we really want to prioritize it. That being said, there’s a whole section on the rear brake in Champ U. The manufacturers add them to the motorcycles for a reason, and especially on a cruiser like yours, they’re pretty important to master!
July 16, 2022 at 2:43 am #531649Steven Primo
- This reply was modified 2 months ago by Alex Hatfield.
When countersteering eg push right I always feel my left arm (and vice versa) is resisting this countersteer action.
What am I doing wrong? And how to fix that?July 18, 2022 at 5:27 am #531708William Salerno
Once past a 45 degree lean I seem to be pushing unintentionally on the outer bar making the final part of the turn in completion harder. Bad habit. Any thought to on how to get past it. My guess is being a short rider, body support survival mode kicking in.
Best to all at the school.
BillJuly 21, 2022 at 10:35 pm #531855Nick Ienatsch
Steven…get your left arm into play by pulling on the left grip while you are pushing on the right grip to lean right. We often push and/or pull to counter steer the bike. Don’t think it’s just pushing…it’s pulling too.
Note: Be sure to make your pushes/pulls as parallel to the ground as possible. In other words, we aren’t pushing the bar down or pulling it up, we are pushing it forward or pulling it back. Let us know how this goes for you…Nick I.July 21, 2022 at 10:45 pm #531856Nick Ienatsch
Bill…Interesting issue. By the time we get the bike leaned over, we aren’t usually using a lot of counter-steering force or pressure. Yes, you could be supporting yourself on the left bar…at the school we ask students who have a lot of weight in their hands to take their left hand off the bar occasionally while riding, firing the core muscles for support.
You may not want to remove your hand from the bar, but you can focus on tightening your core muscles mid-corner…stomach, crotch, back…and using the inside thigh of your outside leg to put pressure on the tank. Using those core muscles and the outside leg allows us to take weight off the hands, great for feeling front grip.
If you are experiencing this on the track, we would encourage you to move off the bike significantly more so you can carry your weight with the outside leg and on the inside footage. Track riders with weight in their hands are often simply not moving enough. That said, we aren’t big fans of hanging off like a GP star on the street.
Give the core muscles a try and let us know…Nick I.July 26, 2022 at 2:58 am #532097David Pittomvils
David from Belgium.
Going through your courses since I’m a new rider. Still preparing for my roadexam.
One thing however that is frustrating, is the amount of different views of all kinds of instructors. A friend of mine is following a course with an instructor who is saying that front brake is only for emergency (huh), rear brake and downshifting is sufficient most of the time. I’m like, what. Their stopping light is barely going on, I try to practise trailbraking now and then (considered unsafe and only usefull on track according to that same instructor, who claims to instruct police officers etc). Using front brake is also messing up the balance etc.
I’m like, ok, fine, you do yours and I will do mine.
In my opinion, all make sense in what I see and practise.July 26, 2022 at 9:32 am #532107Keith Culver
Thanks for your focus on this. Two things come to mind right away.
1. How do the best riders in the world ride? Do they use the front brake a lot? Do they trail brake a lot? Watch MotoGP, watch World Superbike. This is who you want to emulate.
2. The engineers put two giant front brakes on the front wheel and one small one on the back wheel. Why do you think they do that? We know the answer to this because we work with so many of them. It is because they all use the front brake a lot and they all trail brake when they ride.
I just got back from three weeks in Europe on a tour through the Dolomites and the Alps and three days at Mugello with Racing School Europe (RSE), which is a track school run by mostly Belgums and based on the technique of world champions, Troy Corser. Troy is a two-time world champion and our program is originally based on Freddie Spencer’s school (Freddie was a three-time world champ). They are some pretty qualified people to listen to.
In RSE school, I learned that Troy did a lot with downshifting to help the bike slow quicker and hit more apexes so I tried it and it really helped me but the technique was not instead of using the front brake and trail braking, it was ON TOP of it. I quote Racing School Europe here; “If you want to be on the right line, you must trail brake. If you do not, you will not be able to go fast and stay on the right line. You will never be able to go faster.”
On the road in the mountains, my tour guide was a motor police officer from Germany who knew the route and the roads very well. He did not trail brake very much. (not a lot of brake lights in comparison to me) He was a fantastic motorcycle rider but was blown away by how, some guy from the states who has never been to Europe before, could stay on his butt through the twistiest passes in the world without even breaking a sweat. So I told him and showed him how the front brake is the most important component on the bike and how riding the bike based on direction makes doing all that twisty stuff easy in comparison to any other technique. Ricky, the guide, is now saving his money so he can come to America and take our school.
So let your friend do him and you do you but if he asks or tries to compare, just ask him to research how the best riders in the world ride and how the engineers that design our bikes ride. The answer is factual
Rubber Side Down!
KeithJuly 26, 2022 at 11:29 am #532111David Pittomvils
that is what I am indeed doing. They all consider this racing techniques and not suitable for road use. However I think that instructors focus is more on just being a super defensive rider.
I feel more confident using the front brake with the trailbraking (not using it all the time, but often enough) and it feels like I’m more in control of the motorcycle. Also the hovering over the brakes, when rural or twisty roads always there, others say full on the gas.
Rear brake for low speed control or both if needed.
I will just keep on exercising all what seems more natural to me, and which is also explained in your course. It just makes sense.
Yesterday, we did a trip in the hills (Ardennes) and the others were discussing over the intercom the fact that they liked going up more than going down (today, this was mentioned in one of the video’s I was watching). I was just like, hold my beer, will pull bit harder on the brake and do the trailbraking.
And yes, I will probably come over in the near future to follow one of the classes. Would try to combine it with one of trips going to conventions.July 27, 2022 at 9:35 am #532167Keith Culver
“Hold my beer” – classic.
You got the right perspective David.
Ride safe.August 1, 2022 at 7:05 pm #532442David Keller
Hi everyone. I’m new to Champ U and have a tire question.
I just finished the 100 pts of grip module. I ride a BMW 1250 GSA with fairly aggressive tires. Here’s the question: how does the “nobbiness” of the tire affect the 100 pts of grip?
Because of the size of the bike, I rarely have extreme lean angles. On the road, I can definitely feel it as the lean angles increase: quite a bit more vibration. Because of that, I generally don’t lean that much. Off road, I feel that less, but I also am thinking a lot about gravel/dirt/sand, which also causes me to decrease both my speed and lean angles.
Thoughts/tips from any experienced riders out there…
TYVM. Ride safely.
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